That is why it is best to argue these things in a court rather than the water, or side of the road...
Inner Bay
- Thread starter Dune1975
- Start date
FWIW @Three Bouys and I asked 2 Coast Guard Officers this question at the Sportsmen's Show... they both said you wouldn't get a ticket for not having a paper chart... now, they were not too convincing that they knew the regs.... one said she knew their Zodiac boats sometimes run without charts.
I know you want to do what is right and myself like wise. However, in the regulation clause I don't see no distinction between "Registered" vessels and "Licensed" pleasure craft. The regulation simply states any ship or boat which in my interpretation at least covers it all whether registered, licensed, commercial, pleasure or otherwise it would say so. Why would they be charging people on Lake Ontario or why would Boater's exams and the Safe Boating Guide state the exact same thing for pleasure boaters under your legal responsibilities.
Over the years in my dealings with many Civil Service employees I have been given wrong information on multiple occasions that ended up costing me money. Anything they tell you verbally means absolutely nothing when they are writing out the ticket. The 2 officers that told you together a hand drawn map is fine, if you have lived there or boated there for years that's good enough would have been a red flag for me. Many threads of guys having been charged over the last several seasons on SpoonPullers.com that will tell you that definitely will not suffice. Hey no argument intended and hope you get some straight answers tomorrow so we all know the facts.
WOW... I can't believe she even admitted that!
It sounds to me that some of these people have never read the regulations, that's the scary part. I haven't seen or heard that they enforce it on Lake Erie but saying you wouldn't get a ticket doesn't mean it's not the law or that another officer who does know the regulations wouldn't give you one. 
hvyhaul
Well-Known Member
Follow up
I made numerous calls on Monday, and at the end of the day came to conclusion this might be a lot tougher to get answered than I thought.
Tuesday morning I got a call back from a Safety Officer from the Office of Boating Safety Ontario Region Transport Canada. I had very good conversation with them and awaited an answer via email.
Here is the reply.......
Begin
Good morning,
In regards to your question about whether you need to carry paper charts on board, the answer is no, you do not.
You actually don’t even need to have electronic charts on board, as long as you can display local knowledge about the body of water that you are navigating on.
The Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations (found here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-95-149/page-1.html#h-3) state the following in the ‘Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications’ section:
Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications
4 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.
(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
o (a) the location and character of charted
§ (i) shipping routes,
§ (ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
§ (iii) navigational hazards; and
o (b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
This is the end of the response other than pleasantries.
That isn't impossible or unreasonable for the locations I've repeatedly fished/boated in the past in my opinion.
I followed up with a second question via email
Thank you for your quick response.
I guess the boater's responsibility and obligation regarding knowledge varies greatly from location to location.
(edited due to length) Question was fishing in an unfamiliar area using Chartplotter data to fulfill the following;
Can I then conclude that the electronic maps/charts included in my Simrad Chart plotter (Navionics and Insite Charts) satisfy the requirements of 2 a, i, ii, iii, if I was checked out on the water?
Response
Yes, your electronic charts would suffice if you were ever stopped by an enforcement official.
End
The caveat here is if the electronic charts don't provide all the information needed..... you're done (maybe).
I made numerous calls on Monday, and at the end of the day came to conclusion this might be a lot tougher to get answered than I thought.
Tuesday morning I got a call back from a Safety Officer from the Office of Boating Safety Ontario Region Transport Canada. I had very good conversation with them and awaited an answer via email.
Here is the reply.......
Begin
Good morning,
In regards to your question about whether you need to carry paper charts on board, the answer is no, you do not.
You actually don’t even need to have electronic charts on board, as long as you can display local knowledge about the body of water that you are navigating on.
The Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations (found here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-95-149/page-1.html#h-3) state the following in the ‘Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications’ section:
Carriage of Charts, Documents and Publications
4 (1) Subject to subsection (2), the master and owner of every ship shall have on board, in respect of each area in which the ship is to be navigated, the most recent editions of the charts, documents and publications that are required to be used under sections 5 and 6.
(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:
o (a) the location and character of charted
§ (i) shipping routes,
§ (ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
§ (iii) navigational hazards; and
o (b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.
This is the end of the response other than pleasantries.
That isn't impossible or unreasonable for the locations I've repeatedly fished/boated in the past in my opinion.
I followed up with a second question via email
Thank you for your quick response.
I guess the boater's responsibility and obligation regarding knowledge varies greatly from location to location.
(edited due to length) Question was fishing in an unfamiliar area using Chartplotter data to fulfill the following;
Can I then conclude that the electronic maps/charts included in my Simrad Chart plotter (Navionics and Insite Charts) satisfy the requirements of 2 a, i, ii, iii, if I was checked out on the water?
Response
Yes, your electronic charts would suffice if you were ever stopped by an enforcement official.
End
The caveat here is if the electronic charts don't provide all the information needed..... you're done (maybe).
bassaholic
Well-Known Member
That's some good research you did there hvyhaul! I stand corrected on my previous statement of papermaps required. No if only the ticketing officer will believe this info without fighting it in court should some badge cowboy decide to lay the charge lol. No can we finally stop beating this dead horse and move on? This post about inner bay fishing is officially highkacked
@Dune1975... Sorry for highjacking your thread, I promise this will be my last input on this topic.
@hvyhaul...Thank you for your input and hard work searching for answers. I too searched for more on this and your right it is a lot tougher to get answered than I thought also. It all depends who you talk to as one says this and another says that. The only thing that is crystal clear is, yes you don't need the chart if you have sufficient knowledge of the location and type of charted: shipping routes; lights, buoys and marks; and boating hazards; and the area’s usual boating conditions such as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns. But remember this is a huge grey area that is totally up to the discretion of the officer whether your knowledge is sufficient or not. As I said before they do enforce on Lake Ontario, in fact according to some on Spoonpullers they insist the charts be laminated, at your expense of course and your GPS unit does not suffice. The government link below talks about what's legal as far as Electronic Navigational Charts are concerned. Again clear as mud to me except I'm sure they are not talking about out GPS Navionics charts in my combo fishfinder. Anyway I'm not worrying about charts for Erie because they don't enforce anyway, at least not yet but I will definitely carry for Lake Ontario.
In my journeys I also discovered this is now a legal requirement: any vessel that has a freeboard of greater than 0.5 metres is required by law to have a re-boarding device. Your motor can not be used as a re-boarding device! I might add another member just PMed me to say that rule has been around for a long time. I guess this old timer better add it to my "I FORGOT" list which seems to getting longer every year!
https://aceboater.com/en/reboarding-devices
Customer Questions
Am I required by law to carry CHS charts? What are the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations of the Canada Shipping Act?
Answer:
Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage regulations are listed in the Canada Shipping Act, 2001 of the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995.
http://www.chs-shc.gc.ca/help-aide/faq-eng.asp
@hvyhaul...Thank you for your input and hard work searching for answers. I too searched for more on this and your right it is a lot tougher to get answered than I thought also. It all depends who you talk to as one says this and another says that. The only thing that is crystal clear is, yes you don't need the chart if you have sufficient knowledge of the location and type of charted: shipping routes; lights, buoys and marks; and boating hazards; and the area’s usual boating conditions such as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns. But remember this is a huge grey area that is totally up to the discretion of the officer whether your knowledge is sufficient or not. As I said before they do enforce on Lake Ontario, in fact according to some on Spoonpullers they insist the charts be laminated, at your expense of course and your GPS unit does not suffice. The government link below talks about what's legal as far as Electronic Navigational Charts are concerned. Again clear as mud to me except I'm sure they are not talking about out GPS Navionics charts in my combo fishfinder. Anyway I'm not worrying about charts for Erie because they don't enforce anyway, at least not yet but I will definitely carry for Lake Ontario.
In my journeys I also discovered this is now a legal requirement: any vessel that has a freeboard of greater than 0.5 metres is required by law to have a re-boarding device. Your motor can not be used as a re-boarding device! I might add another member just PMed me to say that rule has been around for a long time. I guess this old timer better add it to my "I FORGOT" list which seems to getting longer every year!
https://aceboater.com/en/reboarding-devices
Customer Questions
Am I required by law to carry CHS charts? What are the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations of the Canada Shipping Act?
Answer:
Most vessels of any kind in Canada have an obligation to carry and use official charts and publications and to keep them up to date. The chart carriage regulations are listed in the Canada Shipping Act, 2001 of the Charts and Nautical Publications Regulations, 1995.
- CHS paper charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations.
- CHS digital charts meet the requirements of the chart carriage regulations under certain circumstances:
- CHS Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) meet the requirements provided they are used with an Electronic Chart Display and Information System (ECDIS).
- CHS Raster Navigational Charts (RNCs) meet the requirements only if paper charts are carried and used as a backup.
http://www.chs-shc.gc.ca/help-aide/faq-eng.asp
Last edited:
hvyhaul
Well-Known Member
Halfway through the second reply this thread began unraveling.
@Dune1975 sure hope you found out what you wanted regarding EC10.
I've always found over the years, if you're looking to avoid a fine, your best source of information is from those who will likely be standing in front of you when the ticket for the violation is being written.
willisride
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately they don’t count. Exception is for the specified digital kind listed in the regulations displayed on an ecids unit. Navionics etc apparently don’t qualify as being issued by the corresponding Canadian agency. If you have direct knowledge of the safety hazards and navigable area operating a pleasure craft, also exempt. Bit of a gamble though. Cheers.