Although I agree with the intent of wicket's post I have to disagree with his feelings about the BB post and the shooting of swans. At issue for me is the ability of the average hunter to differentiate between trumpeter and tundra swans. I am also concerned about the optics of shooting swans from a PR perspective. One of the best strategies to protect our hunting heritage is to consolidate support around what we currently have and entrench our right to hunt in the laws and constitution of Canada. Hunters are a minority in Canada and as such will lose every public battle until the right to hunt is guaranteed. Swan hunting is not a hill I wish to die on at this time.
still no birds...and still no ducks dec 15/12
- Thread starter ship wrecked
- Start date
Although I agree with the intent of wicket's post I have to disagree with his feelings about the BB post and the shooting of swans. At issue for me is the ability of the average hunter to differentiate between trumpeter and tundra swans. I am also concerned about the optics of shooting swans from a PR perspective. One of the best strategies to protect our hunting heritage is to consolidate support around what we currently have and entrench our right to hunt in the laws and constitution of Canada. Hunters are a minority in Canada and as such will lose every public battle until the right to hunt is guaranteed. Swan hunting is not a hill I wish to die on at this time.
i appreciate your perspective. Thinking out loud I wonder what everyones thoughts are on the upcoming dove season. Will there be a public outcry about that and if so how will we as hunters deal with it. I also wonder how many will participate in it. Will there be those who target them or will they be a bird harvested as part of a mixed bag. Time will tell but these are the things that bounce around in my pea brain. Another species that flys into america and gets harvested...."our" birds if you will.
Hello Guys,
In response to comments:
Donald ... I forgot to say "thank you" for confirming what I have suspected for quite some time ... that many waterfowlers would be interested in being able to harvest Tundra Swans in Ontario.
If you recall I posted the results of my Tundra Swan survey of the LPWA membership from our AGM of 2011 whereby 85% of the respondents supported my Tundra Swan proposal and the remaining 15% of the respondents expressed some concerns but also an interest or potential interest in being able to harvest Tundra Swans in Ontario.
Duck Duck Goose ... If you recall Dr. M. Schummer (Scientist, LPW) expressed the position of Long Point Waterfowl at our AGM of 2011. He stated that it was the "socio-political" aspect of my Tundra Swan proposal that was the determining factor in Long Point Waterfowl not supporting my proposal at that time. He further stated that although there was no scientific reason not to have a Tundra Swan harvest in Ontario there was no scientific reason to have a Tundra Swan harvest in Ontario ... no dispute here. I agree that the Americans are very capable of controlling the Tundra Swan population at the current 100,000 bird level which is already 25% above the Eastern Population Tundra Swan Management Plan's objective of maintaining 80,000 birds.
Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) had previously made this very clear to me early in 2010 when I first discussed my Tundra Swan proposal with him. I have previously stated however that I realize that Long Point Waterfowl may receive substantial funding from the "bird watchers" of Ontario who may become "upset" with Long Point Waterfowl if they were to support my Tundra Swan proposal. Consequently I can fully appreciate their position from a financial perspective.
However should you agree with the Long Point Waterfowl's position regarding my Tundra Swan proposal then perhaps you would also agree that there is no scientific reason to have a duck harvest in Ontario or in all of Canada for that matter as the Americans are very capable of controlling the duck population at the current level without any help from us.
Pops ... I thank you for your comments however with regards to how my Tundra Swan proposal "will play out in public" that is for discussion at a later date. Under the Eastern Population Tundra Swan Management Plan any new eligible jurisdiction (the Province of Ontario in this case) requesting a Tundra Swan harvest would have to have public information sessions ... similar to what we saw in the early 1980s when the MNR introduced a Canada Goose harvest in southern Ontario.
Duck Tales ... I do not think that you are being "ridiculous" but perhaps a bit "narrow minded" in that you are not being inclusive with your definition. That is why I am continuing with my Tundra Swan proposal as the Tundra Swan is just another "waterfowl" species that is permitted to be hunted in North America. Incidently Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) recently sent me an e-mail thanking me for all the work that I have done to bring Tundra Swan hunting to Canada ... need I say more?
Your final comment would suggest that you are in favour of some form of censorship that would be beyond the rules that are currently in place for this waterfowl forum. I am entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to your opinion.
Wicket ... I thank you for your comments on Channel 6-8 as well as those that you have previously posted on the Hunt Ontario Waterfowl Forum regarding my Tundra Swan proposal.
I have heard about the impending changes regarding "flooded" corn fields in Ontario and I agree that we all have to support each other regarding all aspects of waterfowling ... regardless of whether we participate in that aspect or not.
Tinboater ... Your concern regarding the average waterfowler having the ability to differentiate between a Trumpeter Swan and a Tundra Swan is valid but not a reason to exclude a Tundra Swan harvest ... even the Trumpeter Swan Society acknowledges this. There are currently strategies in place within the United States to minimize the incidential (accidental) harvest of Trumpeter Swans and the Trumpeter Swan Society has produced an excellent identificaton pamphlet that can assist waterfowlers in this regard.
Another "safety" aspect that I have suggested to prevent an incidental (accidental) harvest of a Trumpeter Swan in Ontario is to have all prospective Tundra Swan hunters attend an identification seminar prior to being able to apply for a Tundra Swan tag. Remember that this would be a limited (tag only) harvest ... not open to all waterfowlers.
Furthermore the Trumpeter Swan population has been nearly doubling every ten (10) years and is currently at about 53,000 birds ... 43,000 in the Pacific Coast Population, 5,000 in the Rocky Mountain Population and 5,000 in the Interior Population.
In closing ... I will be able to focus on other projects that will benefit the LPWA members as well as other Ontario waterfowlers once my Tundra Swan proposal is implemented in Ontario. Next week I will be making my third annual $25,000.00 contribution to the Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation ... a foundation committed to bringing Tundra Swan hunting back to Canada. You may review the financial resources that will be available to organizations (including the LPWA) supporting my Tundra Swan proposal (see my "Tundra Swan Proposal - Update and Results of Survey" thread).
I thank all the waterfowlers who support my Tundra Swan proposal.
Sincerely,
Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.
PS In the western part of North America the Tundra Swan population is currently at 80,000 birds which is already 33.33% above the Western Population Tundra Swan Management Plan's objective of maintaining 60,000 birds.
In response to comments:
Donald ... I forgot to say "thank you" for confirming what I have suspected for quite some time ... that many waterfowlers would be interested in being able to harvest Tundra Swans in Ontario.
If you recall I posted the results of my Tundra Swan survey of the LPWA membership from our AGM of 2011 whereby 85% of the respondents supported my Tundra Swan proposal and the remaining 15% of the respondents expressed some concerns but also an interest or potential interest in being able to harvest Tundra Swans in Ontario.
Duck Duck Goose ... If you recall Dr. M. Schummer (Scientist, LPW) expressed the position of Long Point Waterfowl at our AGM of 2011. He stated that it was the "socio-political" aspect of my Tundra Swan proposal that was the determining factor in Long Point Waterfowl not supporting my proposal at that time. He further stated that although there was no scientific reason not to have a Tundra Swan harvest in Ontario there was no scientific reason to have a Tundra Swan harvest in Ontario ... no dispute here. I agree that the Americans are very capable of controlling the Tundra Swan population at the current 100,000 bird level which is already 25% above the Eastern Population Tundra Swan Management Plan's objective of maintaining 80,000 birds.
Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) had previously made this very clear to me early in 2010 when I first discussed my Tundra Swan proposal with him. I have previously stated however that I realize that Long Point Waterfowl may receive substantial funding from the "bird watchers" of Ontario who may become "upset" with Long Point Waterfowl if they were to support my Tundra Swan proposal. Consequently I can fully appreciate their position from a financial perspective.
However should you agree with the Long Point Waterfowl's position regarding my Tundra Swan proposal then perhaps you would also agree that there is no scientific reason to have a duck harvest in Ontario or in all of Canada for that matter as the Americans are very capable of controlling the duck population at the current level without any help from us.
Pops ... I thank you for your comments however with regards to how my Tundra Swan proposal "will play out in public" that is for discussion at a later date. Under the Eastern Population Tundra Swan Management Plan any new eligible jurisdiction (the Province of Ontario in this case) requesting a Tundra Swan harvest would have to have public information sessions ... similar to what we saw in the early 1980s when the MNR introduced a Canada Goose harvest in southern Ontario.
Duck Tales ... I do not think that you are being "ridiculous" but perhaps a bit "narrow minded" in that you are not being inclusive with your definition. That is why I am continuing with my Tundra Swan proposal as the Tundra Swan is just another "waterfowl" species that is permitted to be hunted in North America. Incidently Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) recently sent me an e-mail thanking me for all the work that I have done to bring Tundra Swan hunting to Canada ... need I say more?
Your final comment would suggest that you are in favour of some form of censorship that would be beyond the rules that are currently in place for this waterfowl forum. I am entitled to my opinion and you are entitled to your opinion.
Wicket ... I thank you for your comments on Channel 6-8 as well as those that you have previously posted on the Hunt Ontario Waterfowl Forum regarding my Tundra Swan proposal.
I have heard about the impending changes regarding "flooded" corn fields in Ontario and I agree that we all have to support each other regarding all aspects of waterfowling ... regardless of whether we participate in that aspect or not.
Tinboater ... Your concern regarding the average waterfowler having the ability to differentiate between a Trumpeter Swan and a Tundra Swan is valid but not a reason to exclude a Tundra Swan harvest ... even the Trumpeter Swan Society acknowledges this. There are currently strategies in place within the United States to minimize the incidential (accidental) harvest of Trumpeter Swans and the Trumpeter Swan Society has produced an excellent identificaton pamphlet that can assist waterfowlers in this regard.
Another "safety" aspect that I have suggested to prevent an incidental (accidental) harvest of a Trumpeter Swan in Ontario is to have all prospective Tundra Swan hunters attend an identification seminar prior to being able to apply for a Tundra Swan tag. Remember that this would be a limited (tag only) harvest ... not open to all waterfowlers.
Furthermore the Trumpeter Swan population has been nearly doubling every ten (10) years and is currently at about 53,000 birds ... 43,000 in the Pacific Coast Population, 5,000 in the Rocky Mountain Population and 5,000 in the Interior Population.
In closing ... I will be able to focus on other projects that will benefit the LPWA members as well as other Ontario waterfowlers once my Tundra Swan proposal is implemented in Ontario. Next week I will be making my third annual $25,000.00 contribution to the Dr. Jerome Katchin Waterfowl Foundation ... a foundation committed to bringing Tundra Swan hunting back to Canada. You may review the financial resources that will be available to organizations (including the LPWA) supporting my Tundra Swan proposal (see my "Tundra Swan Proposal - Update and Results of Survey" thread).
I thank all the waterfowlers who support my Tundra Swan proposal.
Sincerely,
Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.
PS In the western part of North America the Tundra Swan population is currently at 80,000 birds which is already 33.33% above the Western Population Tundra Swan Management Plan's objective of maintaining 60,000 birds.
Hello Wicket,
You may have already read my Proposal for a Mourning Dove Harvest in the Province of Ontario that I submitted to the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) back in September of 2010. I subsequently posted my proposal on the LPWA Waterfowl Forum "Channel 6-8" as well as on the Hunt Ontario Upland Forum.
Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) had suggested to me that I consider preparing a Mourning Dove proposal rather than a Tundra Swan proposal when I first discussed my Tundra Swan proposal with him in January of 2010. He also advised me that Long Point Waterfowl had already conducted a public opinion survey regarding a Mourning Dove harvest and that they had published a technical report on the subject ... please see my Mourning Dove proposal for more details.
I also understood at the time that the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH) had already prepared a "position paper" regarding this subject.
If you check the "Mourning Dove" thread on the Hunt Ontario Upland Forum you will notice that another individual had previously asked the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) about a Mourning Dove "season" a few years earlier.
I have stated before that if you do not ask then you will not receive an "open season" even though one may be available for the asking ... as with my Tundra Swan proposal.
Had I not submitted my Mourning Dove proposal back in September of 2010 then we may still be waiting for someone else to submit a proposal for one.
Jerome
PS I am not taking the credit for the Ontario Mourning Dove "season" that will probably start in 2013 but I did get the topic back "on the table" for discussion and the rest is now history.
You may have already read my Proposal for a Mourning Dove Harvest in the Province of Ontario that I submitted to the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) back in September of 2010. I subsequently posted my proposal on the LPWA Waterfowl Forum "Channel 6-8" as well as on the Hunt Ontario Upland Forum.
Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) had suggested to me that I consider preparing a Mourning Dove proposal rather than a Tundra Swan proposal when I first discussed my Tundra Swan proposal with him in January of 2010. He also advised me that Long Point Waterfowl had already conducted a public opinion survey regarding a Mourning Dove harvest and that they had published a technical report on the subject ... please see my Mourning Dove proposal for more details.
I also understood at the time that the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH) had already prepared a "position paper" regarding this subject.
If you check the "Mourning Dove" thread on the Hunt Ontario Upland Forum you will notice that another individual had previously asked the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) about a Mourning Dove "season" a few years earlier.
I have stated before that if you do not ask then you will not receive an "open season" even though one may be available for the asking ... as with my Tundra Swan proposal.
Had I not submitted my Mourning Dove proposal back in September of 2010 then we may still be waiting for someone else to submit a proposal for one.
Jerome
PS I am not taking the credit for the Ontario Mourning Dove "season" that will probably start in 2013 but I did get the topic back "on the table" for discussion and the rest is now history.
ship wrecked
Well-Known Member
How about a sandhill crane shoot taste a lot better than a swan.Was out sat big rice got 5 ducks slow day 7 hrs.Seen lots of boats going out to wards pottahawk the emerald shiner came out to the club must be the boys shoot. Heard lots of shooting how did you guys do bufflehead?
B
Big Dave
Guest
I have stayed out of the Tundra Swan part of this but have read it with some interest as it has been amusing at times.
Buddy Boy you stated
quote If you recall I posted the results of my Tundra Swan survey of the LPWA membership from our AGM of 2011 whereby 85% of the respondents supported my Tundra Swan proposal and the remaining 15% of the respondents expressed some concerns but also an interest or potential interest in being able to harvest Tundra Swans in Ontario.
unquote.
I am sure your 85% is a correct number. However is it not misleading in that you received very few responces? Are you using this 85% approval in your presentation of this idea?
While I am not a member of the LPWA I do NOT support the idea of a Tundra Swan hunt. It seems most others dont either.
BD
12130
Check me out on Face Book
Big Daves Fishing Charters
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#!/BigDavesFishingCharter
Buddy Boy you stated
quote If you recall I posted the results of my Tundra Swan survey of the LPWA membership from our AGM of 2011 whereby 85% of the respondents supported my Tundra Swan proposal and the remaining 15% of the respondents expressed some concerns but also an interest or potential interest in being able to harvest Tundra Swans in Ontario.
unquote.
I am sure your 85% is a correct number. However is it not misleading in that you received very few responces? Are you using this 85% approval in your presentation of this idea?
While I am not a member of the LPWA I do NOT support the idea of a Tundra Swan hunt. It seems most others dont either.
BD
12130
Check me out on Face Book
Big Daves Fishing Charters
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=tn_tnmn#!/BigDavesFishingCharter
ship wrecked
Well-Known Member
so how was the shooting this week and weekend
bufflehead
Active Member
Hey Ship wrecked, it's been a slow year for me also, yesterday was the best day so far, we ended up with our 12 birds, lots of bluebills around, not many Cans to be seen, took the better part of the day but only got setup at 10am, was still nice to get out
ship wrecked
Well-Known Member
quote:
Originally posted by bufflehead
Hey Ship wrecked, it's been a slow year for me also,
Hey bufflehead were you in one of the boats i seen on sat or you come out on the emeral shiner?
Originally posted by bufflehead
Hey Ship wrecked, it's been a slow year for me also,
Hey bufflehead were you in one of the boats i seen on sat or you come out on the emeral shiner?
Hello Guys,
In response to comments:
Ship Wrecked ... I asked Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) about a possible Sandhill Crane harvest for Ontario in 2010 and he advised me that "population dynamics" research is currently being performed on Sandhill Cranes in Ontario.
Mr. J. Helsdon has reported upon the progress of such a potential harvest periodically in the Ontario Out of Doors Magazine since that time ... these things take time.
Big Dave ... My Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario was prepared and submitted to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) in September of 2010 for discussion at the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) meeting in November of that year along with my other three proposals. My Tundra Swan presentation to the LPWA membership which included the Tundra Swan survey was presented at our AGM in April of 2011.
I have previously disclosed (see "Tundra Swan Proposal - Update and Results of Survey" thread) that I received twelve (12) completed and signed surveys from the fifty nine (59) handout packages that were distributed ... a 20% return rate (see note below). Mr. T. Worden (President, Ducks Unlimited Canada) advised me that this 20% return rate was very impressive and that I should be very pleased since normally one should only expect about a 10% return rate from such a survey.
You may want to review the comparison that I did between my Tundra Swan survey and the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) questionnaire regarding their Murre harvest in Atlantic Canada.
Furthermore it is the returned ballots that determine the results of an election. For example a candidate that received 30 out of 50 votes from a total of 100 eligible voters still received a 60% mandate from the people even though only half of the eligible voters had voted in the election.
I know that you do not support my Tundra Swan proposal however you have told me that you do support my Mute Swan proposal which is currently in the process of being approved by the Canadian Wildlife Service.
Finally ... Tundra Swan hunting is not for everyone. There are currently about 970,000 waterfowlers in the United States (based upon what I have read) and there are only 9600 Tundra Swan tags allotted to Canada and the United States with the United States utilizing up nearly all of them ... American waterfowlers can apply for a second Tundra Swan tag if there are some left over. This is only for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans as there is a separate allotment of tags for the Western Population of Tundra Swans.
Sincerely,
Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.
Note: If you include my completed and signed survey then there were thirteen (13) completed and signed surveys from the sixty (60) handout packages that were distributed.
PS I realize that Donald may have some animosity towards me for some unknown reason but he has nevertheless supported my Tundra Swan proposal indirectly by stating that everyone in the marsh wants to hunt the swans.
PS I do not mind the kidding about the "brothel" and the herpes ("herbies") as long as the others realize it for what it is.
In response to comments:
Ship Wrecked ... I asked Dr. S. Petrie (Executive Director, LPW) about a possible Sandhill Crane harvest for Ontario in 2010 and he advised me that "population dynamics" research is currently being performed on Sandhill Cranes in Ontario.
Mr. J. Helsdon has reported upon the progress of such a potential harvest periodically in the Ontario Out of Doors Magazine since that time ... these things take time.
Big Dave ... My Proposal for a Tundra Swan Recreational Harvest in the Province of Ontario was prepared and submitted to Mr. J. Hughes (Head of Population Management, CWS) in September of 2010 for discussion at the Ontario Waterfowl Advisory Committee (OWAC) meeting in November of that year along with my other three proposals. My Tundra Swan presentation to the LPWA membership which included the Tundra Swan survey was presented at our AGM in April of 2011.
I have previously disclosed (see "Tundra Swan Proposal - Update and Results of Survey" thread) that I received twelve (12) completed and signed surveys from the fifty nine (59) handout packages that were distributed ... a 20% return rate (see note below). Mr. T. Worden (President, Ducks Unlimited Canada) advised me that this 20% return rate was very impressive and that I should be very pleased since normally one should only expect about a 10% return rate from such a survey.
You may want to review the comparison that I did between my Tundra Swan survey and the Canadian Wildlife Service (CWS) questionnaire regarding their Murre harvest in Atlantic Canada.
Furthermore it is the returned ballots that determine the results of an election. For example a candidate that received 30 out of 50 votes from a total of 100 eligible voters still received a 60% mandate from the people even though only half of the eligible voters had voted in the election.
I know that you do not support my Tundra Swan proposal however you have told me that you do support my Mute Swan proposal which is currently in the process of being approved by the Canadian Wildlife Service.
Finally ... Tundra Swan hunting is not for everyone. There are currently about 970,000 waterfowlers in the United States (based upon what I have read) and there are only 9600 Tundra Swan tags allotted to Canada and the United States with the United States utilizing up nearly all of them ... American waterfowlers can apply for a second Tundra Swan tag if there are some left over. This is only for the Eastern Population of Tundra Swans as there is a separate allotment of tags for the Western Population of Tundra Swans.
Sincerely,
Jerome Katchin, D.V.M.
Note: If you include my completed and signed survey then there were thirteen (13) completed and signed surveys from the sixty (60) handout packages that were distributed.
PS I realize that Donald may have some animosity towards me for some unknown reason but he has nevertheless supported my Tundra Swan proposal indirectly by stating that everyone in the marsh wants to hunt the swans.
PS I do not mind the kidding about the "brothel" and the herpes ("herbies") as long as the others realize it for what it is.
ship wrecked
Well-Known Member
buddyboy" PS I do not mind the kidding about the "brothel" and the herpes ("herbies") as long as the others realize it for what it is."
Oh they do.Any ducks get shot at the lake this week going to try to get out sat afternoon any hot spots
Oh they do.Any ducks get shot at the lake this week going to try to get out sat afternoon any hot spots
ship wrecked
Well-Known Member
well zone b was a wash didn't even fire the gun.no ducks a few geese and lots of swans..oh weel maybe next time
Hello Ship Wrecked,
I have seen far fewer ducks this year than last year ... the "divers" must still be up north somewhere! I have also seen fewer Canada Geese this year.
I have however seen many more Tundra Swans this year and when they first arrived (about a month ago) I saw many more cygnets (three or four) per adult pair compared to last year when I saw only one or two cygnets per adult pair (see note below).
I am please to let you know that the Sandhill Crane numbers are more numerous than last year as well ... maybe that "open season" that you had asked about will come sooner rather than later.
Jerome
PS Maximum of three cygnets per pair (seen a few times) in 2011 and maximum of five cygnets per pair (seen once) in 2012.
I have seen far fewer ducks this year than last year ... the "divers" must still be up north somewhere! I have also seen fewer Canada Geese this year.
I have however seen many more Tundra Swans this year and when they first arrived (about a month ago) I saw many more cygnets (three or four) per adult pair compared to last year when I saw only one or two cygnets per adult pair (see note below).
I am please to let you know that the Sandhill Crane numbers are more numerous than last year as well ... maybe that "open season" that you had asked about will come sooner rather than later.
Jerome
PS Maximum of three cygnets per pair (seen a few times) in 2011 and maximum of five cygnets per pair (seen once) in 2012.
Old Cut LongPointer
Well-Known Member
BB;
Two weeks ago there was tens of thousands of divers using the Inner Bay then came the freeze up and pushed them on to warmer climes but as of last Friday we still witnessed a few thousand Cans and a approx. the same amount of Blues and Reds go over our cottage heading out to the lake. Smart birds too ! They get altitude out over the bay then head off to the lake and vice versa on they're return to the Inner Bay not giving a guy a chance to even warm his barrel. Still some good size flocks of puddlers if you know where to look for them. The Swans seem to love hanging out by #24 Blind for some reason as we hear them all night long.
So until the "Fat Lady" sings on December 20th...iiiiit's "GAME ON !"
Two weeks ago there was tens of thousands of divers using the Inner Bay then came the freeze up and pushed them on to warmer climes but as of last Friday we still witnessed a few thousand Cans and a approx. the same amount of Blues and Reds go over our cottage heading out to the lake. Smart birds too ! They get altitude out over the bay then head off to the lake and vice versa on they're return to the Inner Bay not giving a guy a chance to even warm his barrel. Still some good size flocks of puddlers if you know where to look for them. The Swans seem to love hanging out by #24 Blind for some reason as we hear them all night long.
So until the "Fat Lady" sings on December 20th...iiiiit's "GAME ON !"
Old Cut LongPointer
Well-Known Member
Jello; You hit it bang on !
Duckman; The world comes to an end on the 21st ! LoL ! Everbybodies season will be over ! LMAO !
Duckman; The world comes to an end on the 21st ! LoL ! Everbybodies season will be over ! LMAO !
Old Cut LongPointer
Well-Known Member
Just read the "Self Serve" post .........great idea ! Maybe I will wait and catch the "Fat Lady's" encore on the 5th of January !