Bassassin
Well-Known Member
How else do you pay for boondoggles such as Ornge and gas plant closures?
We can beat this one with a stick, stab it, drown it, strangle it and shoot it with a 50 Cal, it's not gonna die.
Off Topic... Kellog's Closing London Plant
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How else do you pay for boondoggles such as Ornge and gas plant closures?
We can beat this one with a stick, stab it, drown it, strangle it and shoot it with a 50 Cal, it's not gonna die.
W
whitetailhunter
Guest
The pro-union crowd insists that unions have nothing to do with various businesses closing their doors, but that makes little sense as the majority of union workers do not care about the business as a whole and only care about themselves. In a non union shop the business owner can make cuts when required due to decreased sales and production which means less money coming in. If demand decreases and wages are cut the workers grumble about it a bit and continue working. In the world of business it makes complete sense that reduced operating costs are required when demand decreases.
In a union shop the business is expected to continue paying the high operating costs and continue raising wages yearly regardless of how much work there is and if demand is decreasing yearly. If demand decreases and the company wants to make cuts union workers will strike when asked to work less or work for lower wages which often results in the shop closing it doors as it cannot continue to be competitive if it's losing money or not earning enough profit, which is the primary objective of any business. In the world of business it makes zero sense to continue paying high wages when decreased demand cannot cover operating costs.
Let's say the increased cost of hydro or high taxes is a big factor. A non union shop will make cuts to maintain a functioning and profitable business while keeping as many workers employed as possible while a union shop is expected to eat those costs while keeping every employee on board regardless.
I have personally worked with 3 construction companies in Brantford and the surrounding area who could not keep up with demand and guys were working steady all year. Then the workers got it in their heads that forcing the companies to go union would be better as wages would increase. The result? Every year since they went union work kept declining, people kept getting laid off, and two of the companies eventually closed their doors because operating costs were so high. The one company I worked for had 40+ employees 5 years ago and this year they only had 8 guys working with plans to close up shop at the end of this season. It's extremely difficult to stay competitive and profitable when your workers have more power than those who own and operate the business. I heard that a couple of the workers made more money this year than the guy who owns the business even though he has invested hundreds of thousands into the business and is the guy operating said business.
Unions were required years ago when work conditions were poor and wages were low. These days unions serve no purpose other than making it harder for businesses to stay competitive and profitable as these days the government protects workers and fights for their rights (trust me on this, the ministry of labor has helped me a couple times in the past). There is a big difference between the rights every Canadian worker has and the entitlement union workers believe they deserve
Also, unions are not required to make a decent living. I know of quite a few non union guys who are making more money than their union counterparts.
In a union shop the business is expected to continue paying the high operating costs and continue raising wages yearly regardless of how much work there is and if demand is decreasing yearly. If demand decreases and the company wants to make cuts union workers will strike when asked to work less or work for lower wages which often results in the shop closing it doors as it cannot continue to be competitive if it's losing money or not earning enough profit, which is the primary objective of any business. In the world of business it makes zero sense to continue paying high wages when decreased demand cannot cover operating costs.
Let's say the increased cost of hydro or high taxes is a big factor. A non union shop will make cuts to maintain a functioning and profitable business while keeping as many workers employed as possible while a union shop is expected to eat those costs while keeping every employee on board regardless.
I have personally worked with 3 construction companies in Brantford and the surrounding area who could not keep up with demand and guys were working steady all year. Then the workers got it in their heads that forcing the companies to go union would be better as wages would increase. The result? Every year since they went union work kept declining, people kept getting laid off, and two of the companies eventually closed their doors because operating costs were so high. The one company I worked for had 40+ employees 5 years ago and this year they only had 8 guys working with plans to close up shop at the end of this season. It's extremely difficult to stay competitive and profitable when your workers have more power than those who own and operate the business. I heard that a couple of the workers made more money this year than the guy who owns the business even though he has invested hundreds of thousands into the business and is the guy operating said business.
Unions were required years ago when work conditions were poor and wages were low. These days unions serve no purpose other than making it harder for businesses to stay competitive and profitable as these days the government protects workers and fights for their rights (trust me on this, the ministry of labor has helped me a couple times in the past). There is a big difference between the rights every Canadian worker has and the entitlement union workers believe they deserve
Also, unions are not required to make a decent living. I know of quite a few non union guys who are making more money than their union counterparts.
Chromeseeker
Well-Known Member
Thinking that governments will keep us protected and our rights intact is extremely naive. Our rights and protection from the boogeymen of big business are being eroded and no one even realized it's happening. Every Free Trade agreement that is implemented is rife with clauses to further erode our rights to work for gainful wages. I was at Electromotive for 7 years of which 3 were spent making my way to full wage rate and 1 and a half years laid off. Great job, loved what I did there until the company wanted to slash everything. We all know what happened and I'm not in the least regretful of taking it to the limit.
Hmmm interesting Ch312...
I have worked for the same union shop for the last 10 years... Do you know how many raises after reaching top rate i have had... Zero... Cost of living allowance... Frozen... Along with losing 2 weeks holidays and a reduction in benefits... The whole time the company is setting record profits... Also while the top 1% get record bonuses...
So you were saying???
I think a new set of laws need to be made to protect jobs in Canada...
Maximum wage... Heavy import taxes on products that can and should be made here...
With all the Kia and Hyundai vehicles i see... They shoud have a manufactoring plant in Ontario... Just the tip of the iceburg.... :/
I have worked for the same union shop for the last 10 years... Do you know how many raises after reaching top rate i have had... Zero... Cost of living allowance... Frozen... Along with losing 2 weeks holidays and a reduction in benefits... The whole time the company is setting record profits... Also while the top 1% get record bonuses...
So you were saying???
I think a new set of laws need to be made to protect jobs in Canada...
Maximum wage... Heavy import taxes on products that can and should be made here...
With all the Kia and Hyundai vehicles i see... They shoud have a manufactoring plant in Ontario... Just the tip of the iceburg.... :/
angler
Well-Known Member
Obviously this is not about fishing but there is little else to do so here goes.
Based on my 45 years in business I cannot agree with almost anything 312 said and a lot of it just makes no sense.
First he says unions cause the problem; then he says he knows quite a few non-union guys making more than their union counterparts.Obviously it was not the union causing problems as he just said the non union jobs paid more. Seems to me it might be the type of business that is the problem.
Chromeseeker and Jammer answered with real life instances where union wages did not keep increasing.
To say businesses in Brantford could not keep up with demand ,but, as soon as they went union the demand decreased is a non sequitur- it doesn't make sense! Demand decreased because the company went union???
312 says we no longer need unions to protect working conditions and wage levels; but that is the whole point of the 1% issue- both conditions and levels are being eroded to enrich the 1%. The US is a good example of how badly workers are treated by companies without some union or government protection.
There is a big problem but it is not caused by the existence of unions.
Based on my 45 years in business I cannot agree with almost anything 312 said and a lot of it just makes no sense.
First he says unions cause the problem; then he says he knows quite a few non-union guys making more than their union counterparts.Obviously it was not the union causing problems as he just said the non union jobs paid more. Seems to me it might be the type of business that is the problem.
Chromeseeker and Jammer answered with real life instances where union wages did not keep increasing.
To say businesses in Brantford could not keep up with demand ,but, as soon as they went union the demand decreased is a non sequitur- it doesn't make sense! Demand decreased because the company went union???
312 says we no longer need unions to protect working conditions and wage levels; but that is the whole point of the 1% issue- both conditions and levels are being eroded to enrich the 1%. The US is a good example of how badly workers are treated by companies without some union or government protection.
There is a big problem but it is not caused by the existence of unions.
I have been with the same company for 35 years. STEELWORKERS UNION. Sure over the 35 years our wages have changed but mostly to reflect cost of living. 1998 we went on strike because our employer decided it was time to slash and burn the collective agreement. We went back to work after a week and half with very little gains but we kept what we had. 2003 our company was bought up by NEW OWNERSHIP, 2005 rolls around and this new ownership wants to slash everything in the CBA by 50 % .. THIS IS NOT HAPPENING, we went on a three month ugly strike ( three bouys was there ) and went back to work to keep what we had with no gains until the third year and those gains were minimal. 2008 we signed a 4 year deal that had very little in it but we kept what had. 2012 we signed a four deal that slashed our pension,froze our wages and our cost of living and we now have a three tier CBA meaning those hired after signing this ( garbage) get to work beside me with NO COST OF LIVING. If you think UNIONS are not necessary,think again brothers and sisters. Three bouys is a millwright at our shop,ask him if our wages compare to those at other places of employment. I am sure his answer will be,not a chance!! AND yes this company in INGERSOLL is making money hand over fist.
W
whitetailhunter
Guest
I'll reply to each point and use construction jobs as an example. Your specific job and company may be far different, but this is what I've seen for years in the construction/concrete field.
I fail to see how unions are not the problem when the majority of shops closing up in recent years are union.
First he says unions cause the problem; then he says he knows quite a few non-union guys making more than their union counterparts.Obviously it was not the union causing problems as he just said the non union jobs paid more. Seems to me it might be the type of business that is the problem.
It's normal for unions to start their unskilled laborers at say $25/hr even if they don't "deserve it" and pay rates are often based on seniority or what the union deems to be an acceptable wage, not what the starting rate for the industry is. This often results in more experienced guys earning less than the unskilled guys simply because they "put in their time". On the flip side, most positions in a comparable non union company will start their guys at low wages of say $15/hr and will compensate them accordingly for their skill and productivity. Therefore, a union company will have everyone earning $25-30/hr+ regardless of how productive or skilled they are where a non union shop will have only a few guys earning high wages. There is a huge difference in overhead costs when you have 30 guys making at least $25/hr and 10 laborers making $15, 10 lead hands making $20, 5 foreman's making $25, and 5 supervisors making $30/hr.
My point is unions in the construction field start their workers at unrealistic wages.
Chromeseeker and Jammer answered with real life instances where union wages did not keep increasing.
To say businesses in Brantford could not keep up with demand ,but, as soon as they went union the demand decreased is a non sequitur- it doesn't make sense! Demand decreased because the company went union???
They could not keep up with demand before the 3 companies went union, but after they went union the companies could no longer compete with non union shops as they were forced to pay their employee's unrealistic wages for the industry and area. This resulted in the union companies obtaining less contracts as they were forced to price the jobs much higher to cover the greatly increased overhead. It's not that the demand decreased as the non union companies are getting overtime every week. For example, two of my buddies working at the remaining union company have worked the equivalent of one week the month of December while 5 of my other buddies at non union companies have been getting overtime every week.
312 says we no longer need unions to protect working conditions and wage levels; but that is the whole point of the 1% issue- both conditions and levels are being eroded to enrich the 1%. The US is a good example of how badly workers are treated by companies without some union or government protection.
There is a big problem but it is not caused by the existence of unions.
What does the US have to do with Canada? It's an apples vs oranges comparison. We have our own laws and regulations and as someone who has used the Ministry of Labor to encourage employers to "do the right thing" on two separate occasions, I can assure you that the Ontario Government is the only protection anyone in Ontario needs. Also, as someone who refuses to join a union, I can assure you that every Ontarian has the opportunity to earn a decent wage IF they're willing to work for it and apply themselves.
The problem with many unions is they instill a sense of self entitlement in their workers while feeding them a bunch of false BS to make them believe you cannot make a decent living without working for a union as every non union position is unsafe and pays minimum wage. Why do they this? Because unions rely on the dues paid by their workers to stay afloat
I fail to see how unions are not the problem when the majority of shops closing up in recent years are union.
No, thinking that every non union position is unsafe, unhealthy, underpaid, and will get you nowhere in life is extremely naive
Union folks fail to understand that a business is started to make money for those who started the business. Ya know that old saying "you'll never get rich working for someone else"? Union folks think it should be the other way around and they should be the ones getting rich, not the business owners.
Smellybox
Active Member
Nothing more true ch312, a lot of self entitlement in the union crowd, all they have to do is just to show up to work and collect a pay check, keeping the company afloat is really not a concern to the union crowd until the place closes on them and they are left un employed
B
Big Dave
Guest
When there is nothing left remember what destroyed it.
Has anyone considered the change in the way folks live that has taken place over the last thirty or forty years. Lots of positives but some of it may be contributing factors to the demise of the manufacturing sector. (or even outcomes)
When I was a kid folks lived in small homes on big lots. A house cost less than $20,000 dollars. We didn't have a TV. The boat was an old cedar strip that was already 30 years old. Fishing poles were simple level winds and they lasted years without needing replacement. Our family had one older vehicle and my mother worked part time as a teacher to help make ends meet. Kids wore hand me downs. I could go on and on but the real point is that we were happy without everything we have today.
Canada today is normally ranked in the top ten countries in the world for quality of life. Health care, infrastructure, safety, number of people below the poverty line, child mortality, age to retire, age to die and so on. Everyone is doing better! The numbers say so. All of that comes at a cost.
At the same time the world is changing. When Brian Mulroney brought in the NAFTA he told us it would mean a move from a manufacturing base to a service base for our economy. Since then we have signed on with Mexico, Europe and now we are celebrating a global free trade agreement. Brian's words were prophetic.
We still cut wood but we do it with machines, not men and we no longer mill it. We mine coal and ship it to China because it is too dirty to burn here. (Close Nanticoke and Lambton GS on top of it.) We are finding new and innovative ways to extract oil from tar sands but can't build a pipeline quick enough to ship the raw material out of the country. So jobs are changing, the economy is changing and we see some folks are giving back hard fought gains in the labour force. More folks work in services that support the economy, not manufacturing jobs that create the economy. Things like trucking, sales, distribution, repairs and so on.
Is it good or bad? I don't know. It is different and it was planned by Brian and the rest of the folks in Ottawa.
When I was a kid folks lived in small homes on big lots. A house cost less than $20,000 dollars. We didn't have a TV. The boat was an old cedar strip that was already 30 years old. Fishing poles were simple level winds and they lasted years without needing replacement. Our family had one older vehicle and my mother worked part time as a teacher to help make ends meet. Kids wore hand me downs. I could go on and on but the real point is that we were happy without everything we have today.
Canada today is normally ranked in the top ten countries in the world for quality of life. Health care, infrastructure, safety, number of people below the poverty line, child mortality, age to retire, age to die and so on. Everyone is doing better! The numbers say so. All of that comes at a cost.
At the same time the world is changing. When Brian Mulroney brought in the NAFTA he told us it would mean a move from a manufacturing base to a service base for our economy. Since then we have signed on with Mexico, Europe and now we are celebrating a global free trade agreement. Brian's words were prophetic.
We still cut wood but we do it with machines, not men and we no longer mill it. We mine coal and ship it to China because it is too dirty to burn here. (Close Nanticoke and Lambton GS on top of it.) We are finding new and innovative ways to extract oil from tar sands but can't build a pipeline quick enough to ship the raw material out of the country. So jobs are changing, the economy is changing and we see some folks are giving back hard fought gains in the labour force. More folks work in services that support the economy, not manufacturing jobs that create the economy. Things like trucking, sales, distribution, repairs and so on.
Is it good or bad? I don't know. It is different and it was planned by Brian and the rest of the folks in Ottawa.
Bassassin
Well-Known Member
One last comment and I put this one behind me. About 20 years ago the president of local 1005 Warren Smith of The United Steelworkers of America representing Stelco hourly rated workers told me during a Health and Safety meeting, " we are going to bring this company to it's knees and I'll have all your jobs ".
Congratulations on your successful prediction Warren.
If it wasn't for the due paying members of the union members I may not have ever gotten a raise or increase in benefits, for their sacrifices through 2 long strikes I was personally involved in at Hilton Works Stelco Inc. I am grateful. There is a need for a union at certain times in our history, the day of the localized unions have passed. In 1981 the only venue that would seat the members of 1005 to hear details of the tentative agreement we had reached was Ivor Wynne Stadium. The local can now hold a meeting in a MGB.
Compare Arcelor Mittal Dofasco and US Steel Hamilton, one at maximum capacity making record profits one has shut down it's Iron and Steelmaking operations and is constantly in the red. One is unionized, one isn't. They are both faced with the identical Green Energy Act, OHSA, Hydro costs and tax rates etc. Etc.etc.etc.
You do the math.
Congratulations on your successful prediction Warren.
If it wasn't for the due paying members of the union members I may not have ever gotten a raise or increase in benefits, for their sacrifices through 2 long strikes I was personally involved in at Hilton Works Stelco Inc. I am grateful. There is a need for a union at certain times in our history, the day of the localized unions have passed. In 1981 the only venue that would seat the members of 1005 to hear details of the tentative agreement we had reached was Ivor Wynne Stadium. The local can now hold a meeting in a MGB.
Compare Arcelor Mittal Dofasco and US Steel Hamilton, one at maximum capacity making record profits one has shut down it's Iron and Steelmaking operations and is constantly in the red. One is unionized, one isn't. They are both faced with the identical Green Energy Act, OHSA, Hydro costs and tax rates etc. Etc.etc.etc.
You do the math.
I love the twist you put on things WTP... lol...
US Steel Hamilton... Moved some of its production to the States and alot of it Nanticoke... Biggest concern... Trucking steel rolls down the mountain... Please post all the info... Thanks... Happy New Year...
US Steel Hamilton... Moved some of its production to the States and alot of it Nanticoke... Biggest concern... Trucking steel rolls down the mountain... Please post all the info... Thanks... Happy New Year...
B
big rod
Guest
Fish Farmer
Well-Known Member
It will come to a end soon. All will have a rude awakening. Math doesn't work out, no jobs, Low paying jobs, everything going up, wages going down, big homes that people can't afford, young kids living beyond their means, and the biggest problem is our politicians don't mind spending OUR money that we don't have.
Just read in this mornings paper us tax payers are going to take a hit because of the ice storm because they don't have the money, but they can talk about the LRT,Pan Am games, police wanting more money, and funding for other crap that we don't need. Who tot these people? I guess they never had parents that told them don't waste your money, save it for a rainy day case you may need it.
Then I see our leader saying shes going to hike our gas 10 cents a litre, and she wants my vote, I can't believe these people live amongst us.
Come on ice, I gotta get out fishin .
Just read in this mornings paper us tax payers are going to take a hit because of the ice storm because they don't have the money, but they can talk about the LRT,Pan Am games, police wanting more money, and funding for other crap that we don't need. Who tot these people? I guess they never had parents that told them don't waste your money, save it for a rainy day case you may need it.
Then I see our leader saying shes going to hike our gas 10 cents a litre, and she wants my vote, I can't believe these people live amongst us.
Come on ice, I gotta get out fishin
.