No Extra Tags For 90

[Moose man]

Spot and stalk sounds like you like fair chase hunting how fair is surrounding a bush with 15 guys and sending in Some more to push any deer out don't sound to fair I've been hunting the past week and there are lots of deer I have let close to 20 walk by looking for the right one I don't hunt from a stand and let numerous bucks up to 8 points walk but a lot of them won't make it after the next hunt when the big gangs push the same areas and kill everything in sight especially if they have snow just don't seem too fair

 

[ch312]

Don't get me wrong I don't particularly agree with large groups of guys pushing bush with shotguns, but we shouldn't really frown upon it as it's a legal method of deer hunting. There are plenty of deer around here and the population can handle the large # of kills from these large groups.

The huge advantage deer and lone hunters have over these groups is the majority of the guys participating in only the shotgun hunt each year (meaning they only deer hunt 1 week a year) are totally clueless. All they know is to setup some blockers on one end and the drivers simply walk towards them and many have no clue when it comes to identifying bedding and staging areas, how to call or use scents, the impact weather has, how to spot motionless deer, or how to stalk deer. So if they push a bush and see no deer they automatically assume there are no deer in that bush when in reality the deer likely doubled back, stayed motionless, or used a trail these hunters couldn't identify.


I prefer to find a fresh track in the snow and put the stalk on with the crossbow simply because hunting from a stand is extremely boring and I found myself falling asleep too often and conducting deer drives is simply too easy and basically cheating. But, I won't frown upon another method of hunting simply because I choose another method, although I do have a strong opinion against long range shooting (I refuse to call it hunting when shooting an animal 700 yards away).

 

[Donald86]

Whoever put those ideas in your head couldn't be more wrong.

I'm just talking from my experiences that's all, Last spring put trail cams up over 2 dens and them dogs brought 9 fawns to the 2 dens, I've watch yotes watch a doe give birth in a hay field and take the fawn,
We had 5 fawns on camera this spring in one bush pair of twins and a set of triples, One pic the triples are there< yote runs by minute later then we never got another pic or seen the 3 together again just 2 and 2. Some of them that came to the dens could be still boring or road kill, I know there lots of other factors, weather, food hunting pressure, road kills but to say dogs don't have a effect on fawns and deer from what I have seen with my eyes you couldn't be more wrong so take it for what's its worth.

 

[ch312]

I'm just talking from my experiences that's all, Last spring put trail cams up over 2 dens and them dogs brought 9 fawns to the 2 dens, I've watch yotes watch a doe give birth in a hay field and take the fawn,
We had 5 fawns on camera this spring in one bush pair of twins and a set of triples, One pic the triples are there< yote runs by minute later then we never got another pic or seen the 3 together again just 2 and 2. Some of them that came to the dens could be still boring or road kill, I know there lots of other factors, weather, food hunting pressure, road kills but to say dogs don't have a effect on fawns and deer from what I have seen with my eyes you couldn't be more wrong so take it for what's its worth.

Sorry, but I prefer to get facts from educated biologists who have done many studies on this very subject to prove coyotes do not have such a huge impact on deer populations as some people think. There are tons of studies that have discredited the old "shoot every yote you see if you want any deer around next year" mentality.

Are you saying the biologists who go to school for years and study these animals for a living are wrong too?

 

[Moose man]

Well t

Sorry, but I prefer to get facts from educated biologists who have done many studies on this very subject to prove coyotes do not have such a huge impact on deer populations as some people think. There are tons of studies that have discredited the old "shoot every yote you see if you want any deer around next year" mentality.

Are you saying the biologists who go to school for years and study these animals for a living are wrong too?

Well there you have it don't believe anything you here and only half of what you see and leave the thinking to the experts there doing a great job with the bears and moose populations we should all just bury our heads in the sand and leave the thinking to the experts who know everything

 

[Donald86]

Wasn't saying they were facts man just saying my experience.
Long Point for example, 6 years ago there were deer every where, Use to see a deer every night, now when someone sees one its rare. 6 years ago it was rare to see or hear a coyote around the park, now if you don't hear them at night or at 4 am when you get up it weird and one is spotted every night.
Not saying i'm right just from what i've seen they defiantly have a impacted where I've been.
Ive also heard james kroll say to kill them if you wanna help out your deer herd, And hes probably the most well know deer biologist in north America so I will listen to him.

 

[can't miss]

In reply to, and with respect, to ch312's post, I strongly dis-agree.
As I've mentioned in a couple of other post, I've been hunting for about 1000 yrs now, shot everything out there, including the shit now and then?
Educated Biologist working for the Ministry, we need to take some wording out of this statement, educated and working.
They may have a biologist title, but not much mud on their boot's?
36 yrs working for the ont government, (yey a spoiled government worker with a opinion, not looking to have my ass chewed off for that}
These educated biologists, most, not all, are some government worker's kid that daddy, ( both Union and Management, they have %'s of who get's hired ) has managed to get a "Life" job. And to alot , it's not were they want to be, but with benefits and $$, toll the line and get that pension.
Deer survey's, (which most hunter's exaggerate, ministry does take off a large for % for that) and the odd count in provincial park's, really, how do they, the MNR, know what the population's are in a any given area?
Do you think their out in the swamp's were I hunt, counting fawn's and coyotes, or in meeting's with bagell's and Tim's??
Just a old guy's rant
Cheer's

 

[bigtalk]

In reply to, and with respect, to ch312's post, I strongly dis-agree.
As I've mentioned in a couple of other post, I've been hunting for about 1000 yrs now, shot everything out there, including the shit now and then?
Educated Biologist working for the Ministry, we need to take some wording out of this statement, educated and working.
They may have a biologist title, but not much mud on their boot's?
36 yrs working for the ont government, (yey a spoiled government worker with a opinion, not looking to have my ass chewed off for that}
These educated biologists, most, not all, are some government worker's kid that daddy, ( both Union and Management, they have %'s of who get's hired ) has managed to get a "Life" job. And to alot , it's not were they want to be, but with benefits and $$, toll the line and get that pension.
Deer survey's, (which most hunter's exaggerate, ministry does take off a large for % for that) and the odd count in provincial park's, really, how do they, the MNR, know what the population's are in a any given area?
Do you think their out in the swamp's were I hunt, counting fawn's and coyotes, or in meeting's with bagell's and Tim's??
Just a old guy's rant
Cheer's

There's some valuable stuff in here and some really useless crap in this response - old people like to mix it up like that, I think. haha
In our area, I don't know a biologist responsible for allocating deer tags that wasn't an avid deer hunter - so not only do they have as much professional mud on their boots as they can budget, they also have a lot of recreational mud on their boots too.
MNR has a very awkward and maybe even inefficient hiring protocol that tries very hard to eliminate any nepotism. And I can't think of any local biologist (or permanent government employee) hired because of family ties.
Saying that, if we wanted to spend more money or allocate more money to having MNR look into our deer populations, I'm sure the person responsible for allocating tags would love the support - as it is, I'm sure tag allocation is a small part of the person's job and I bet that he/she would rather be in the field than sitting in a meeting with Tim's. Even if we were willing to throw more money at MNR to understand our deer populations, with the current political culture would many landowners want their mud on MNR boots? I'm guessing probably not. The fact is, they probably don't have as much information as they'd prefer to go on for tag allocation, but I do think they're doing their best with the resources they have - and, frankly, it's embarrassing that it's so trendy to crap on the guy who's trying to do a job that benefits us all as deer hunters, with so few resources. If you want to fling poop, I'd aim higher up the provincial tree to the people who decide where our provincial and hunting license moneys go.

 

[can't miss]

Good Morning Big T
I have to respectfully disagree with a few points in your post. Here's why.
Nepotism is alive and well in the MNR? To see this, go to the Service Ont web site, then Info-Go-Government of Ontario Employee and Organization Directory. Go to the telephone search, and be sure the organization window is on natural resources and forestry. Use any last name as your key word, I used a couple common names just off the top of my head. 15 names came up under Brown, 18 under Smith. Now 2 to 5 names may be just coincidence, but 18 all the same, read's like a family reunion to me. Want to see it even clearer, use a Manager's or Union official's name as a key word, it's a eye opener? Hard to find the info for summer students, and temp employee's that are hired, but you can be sure 95% are MNR employee related. Many Ministries now use outside organizations to thin out the application process, its to give the appearance that they are at a arms length to the hiring process, ( Ranstat is the one I am aware of), but the final hiring is still done threw Management and Union, and surprise, the nepotism lives on.
I will agree with you to a point, some of the biologist are avid hunter's, but not that many.
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I worked for (retired now), a branch of the Ont Gov, which shall remain un-named, as I'm not looking for poison re-post's directed at myself, that's not what this is about.
I have sat threw many meeting's, on many committee's and task forces, to get access and right away's approved by MNR, very seldom ever site meeting's, hour's and hour's wasted only to have Goggle Earth decide the outcome, but the Tim's and bagel's were always good??
It's your prerogative if you wish to support the poor over worked biologist, and push the blame up the government ladder, but after a career of driving to, and sitting threw hour's and days of meetings on what could have been resolved with a 1/2 day being spent in the field, getting that professional mud on the boots, I have to say I see it differently. As well, my negativity may seem directed towards the MNR exclusively, it's not, it's just were I do have personal experience, all provincial government organization's are equally guilty of burning cash and wasting manpower.
Pleasure chatting with you, and look forward to your response.
Respectfully Can't-miss

 

[ch312]

Well there you have it don't believe anything you here and only half of what you see and leave the thinking to the experts there doing a great job with the bears and moose populations we should all just bury our heads in the sand and leave the thinking to the experts who know everything

Sigh...

The bear fisaco is 100% the fault of the government, not the MNRF. It was nothing more than political pressure, not facts supplied by the MNRF, that ended the spring hunt which resulted in too many bears in the province.

In regards to moose, what exactly are they doing wrong? Was reducing the number of tags available to benefit the moose herd the wrong decision? Or are you referring to the MNRF offering calf tags? Shooting the young isn't a good idea for herd management, but without the calf tags there would be far less people moose hunting as there aren't enough adult animals in the province for the number of moose hunters. Calf tags must be issued simply to keep people interested in the hunt.



Some of you really need to learn and understand herd management. Facts, not opinions, are all that matter.