Long Point Causeway Project

I thought the purpose of the culverts was to let the flow of water pass easily from the bay to the marsh to reduce silting.
 
Jiminybb.....and statistics on Canadian Frog Populations are down almost 80% according to a Nature of things Program of last year...so if mortality is down 50%...That means that the actual by percentage kill is up 30% if the population trend is considered.

Statistics are great...you can always adjust them to your argument.
 
Just replying to gryphon hunter and your comment about silt from big creek and you are very wrong let me explain I have been hunting long point for 14 years and in b zone on the point at big creek we at one time could almost run on the hard bottom that was there over the time that I have been at long point all of b zone has filled with three feet of silt and has filled in with weeds making it almost un hunt able .we at one time would hunt divers all the way to shore big creek is a big problem and is slowly filling the bay
 
Of course sediment flows down Big Creek, that's how water works; but I would suggest that most of the filling is from the glacial till blowing in from everywhere around the point.
 
Lpgar: Good one, comparing statistics across Canada from some TV show you watched to one road way in southern Ontario... And actually if you paid better attention to detail you would also note that I was generalizing amphibians AND reptiles, mainly focusing on reptiles... Yes you can adjust statistics to your argument, for example; if you have no idea what your talking about you can argue for hours over absolutely nothing, you can even make up your own, or bring in statistics from other places... The point is if you bring in statistics bring in the right ones... According to David Suzuki last year frog populations where down 80%, what does that have to do with the Causeway?
 
Jiminy...

Actually alot if the causeway folks want to use statistics to prove that the frog fence is saving amphibian lives. If the overall frog population is down 80%...and you counted only 50% less dead frogs you have actually killed more frogs because of the fence not less. 20 yrs ago them damn frogs would keep me awake all night in July and August...now not a one croaking. There was no fence 20 yrs ago.

So...might not know what I am talking about....but not sure that the science being used for the causeway study does either.
 
I don't really have a strong opinion either way on the causeway project, but I am interested in native reptiles and amphibians. I have followed all the discussions in the media around the decline in frogs and the possible reasons. Pollution, increased UV, climate change etc. However, one thing I have never heard discussed is the impact of birds. This is purely anecdotal but I am in my fifties and when I was a boy a great blue heron was a special and fairly rare sighting. Everyone would come to look if you saw one. Now it seems there is one every couple of hundred feet in the marsh. What do these birds do all day? They walk the edge of the marsh and eat adult frogs. Seems to me there could be a connection.
 
Cam

I am sure that predation is a factor. Blue has been wandering the channel for 6 days. Karma tries to chase him off several times a day but must be some yummy frogs left.

Actually....the main factor for the frog loss is a fungus imported from China in the 1950s. They used to use frogs for pregnancy testing and the frogs that were imported from china carried a fungus that has attacted our native frogs hard. Sure..climate change...UV...pollution all contribute to lowering their immune status...but the fungus is probably the biggest thing to point our fingers at.

Folks...just for the record. I don't oppose the causeway project. I oppose spending money that does not make a difference. If money was being spent to actually change the Big Creek marsh system on a whole and changing the causeway (that caused the mess in the first place) was part of that. I would be pounding the pavement looking for the funds to do it. Just one trip into the US to look at how coastal marsh areas are treated and the scope of the projects to Cross a bay like LP Bay is amazing. A Project like this is really what needs to be done. Not a few tunnels as a bandaid using bad science to support them.
 
lpgar: Where are you getting your information from? First of all 95% of the money that's going into the project was raised by the LPCIP, the science behind it was not only conducted by top ecologists, scientists and conservation organizations but is supported by them, also most people don't rely on science conducted 60 years ago... things have changed...
 
Hello Guys,

There have been some very interesting ideas presented within this "thread" that I believe should have been discussed before the LPWA decided to formally support this project.

Canvasback ... I am trying to see both sides of this iisue but the folks at FOCAS have presented some concerns that would suggest that "due process" was either not followed as it should have been or had been manipulated to facilitate acceptance of the proposal. Again I will leave it to the representatives of FOCAS to present more details regarding their concerns.

JiminyBlueBill ... okay I accept your apology and I had a great time reading your suggestions but I have the following comments to make:

1) I will pass on the lemonade stand (lol).

2) I already pick up the litter (including beer cans) on the west side of the causeway in front of my house as well as to either side of it every spring before the grass grows too tall.

3) I do not need the extra exercise as I work out at the gym three times per week and I cannot afford to lose any more weight as I am on a "fixed income" ... sort of.

4) I do not have any "down time" as I am too busy on Channel 6-8 (lol).

5) I did think of opening a Tundra Swan information both to promote my 2010 Tundra Swan proposal as the CWS should be completeing their Tundra Swan assessment regarding my proposal fairly soon ... I am still hoping for a Tundra Swan season in Canada.by 2015.

Lpgar ... the $60,000.00 that Norfolk County has agreed to is exactly my point because the pamphlet stated specifically "at NO cost to Norfolk taxpayers".

Duckman ... I understand that Big Creek use to flow south directly out to Lake Erie and that the current flow (eastward) was actually a man made channel with part of Hasting's Drive filling in the old original creek bed. Perhaps that old creek bed should have been re-opened to permit water from Lake Erie to periodically "flush out" the Big Creek marsh.

Singlemalt ... I agree as I see Great Blue Herons on a regular basis (sometimes two pairs at a time) as well as White Herons sometimes feeding. I agree with Lpgar that if the frog population is down 80% across Canada and the causeway road kill is only down by 50% then something would appear to be "out of wack" as it should be down by 80% as well ... not by 50%. Furthermore I also wonder if all those Sandhill Cranes (whose population is growing every year) may be eating some of our frogs. Maybe that could be a good reason to implement a Sandhill Crane season sooner rather than later in Ontario ... just a thought.

Well this has been an interesting read so far.

Jerome
 
Glacial till has been blowing in from long point for many more years than big creek has been flowing in to long point never filled it in before when big creek once run out into the lake and someone correct me I could be wrong but the flow of big creek changed when a big storm closed it in and the creek changed direction and started to flow the way it.
 
Buddy Boy/Lpgar,

My apologies for any rude comments I have made, I suppose it is a little easy sometimes to get heated behind a computer screen... I can respect that we are all passionate about our point of views, bickering doesn't solve any of the problems... no hard feelings...
 
Duckman

Big Creek was channelized to the bay to allow shipments of grain from Port Royal in the early 1800's. That should show you just how much of the head of the bay has filled in since...they use to have sailing ships and barges go up to a fairly major dock in Port Royal.....lucky to get a canoe up the mouth of big creek right now.

The original system would have been a trellis. Some waters to the lake....some through the marsh and into the bay.....but in a maze of channels that would change constantly with time and flow. The orginal creek mouth I have been told is where the gravel is about where the cement wall sea-wall is 2/3 of the way up Hastings.
 
quote:
Originally posted by duckman

Glacial till has been blowing in from long point for many more years than big creek has been flowing in to long point never filled it in before when big creek once run out into the lake and someone correct me I could be wrong but the flow of big creek changed when a big storm closed it in and the creek changed direction and started to flow the way it.



How do you know what filling was going on before Big Creek entered the Bay? And what do you think happens to the 2-4 horizontal (landward) metres of earth that falls off the bluffs of Bayham and western Norfolk and into the Lake every year? Surely you don't think that it all just falls off into the hole at the end of Long Point?
What probably did stop some quality flushing of sediment in the marsh was the close of Old Cut (which I beleive was opened and closed by storms).
 
Lpgar -- you wrote "A Project like this is really what needs to be done. Not a few tunnels as a bandaid using bad science to support them."

As I'm a member of the LPCIP Science Advisory Committee, I could take that as a personal insult, but I won't. Rather, I'd just like you to identify one or more examples of the "bad science" that's behind this project. Thanks!

Also, for the record, the 2 dry ecopssages and the large aquatic culvert are just the first phase of what's planned to be done on the Causeway -- 6 more dry ecopassages and 2 more large aquatic culverts are proposed if the LPCIP can raise the funds.
 
Buddy Boy -- you wrote "Canvasback ... I am trying to see both sides of this iisue but the folks at FOCAS have presented some concerns that would suggest that "due process" was either not followed as it should have been or had been manipulated to facilitate acceptance of the proposal. Again I will leave it to the representatives of FOCAS to present more details regarding their concerns."

FOCAS presented their ideas, proposals, etc., to the MoE Environmental Assessment. To its credit, the Environmental Review Panel dismissed them as irrelevant, impractical, and illogical. It was because of the nonsense raised by FOCAS that the cost of the EA was higher than expected and I think that was at least part of the reason that Norfolk County decided to kick in $60K to get Phase 1 of the project completed.
 
quote:
Originally posted by canvasbacksca
Also, for the record, the 2 dry ecopssages and the large aquatic culvert are just the first phase of what's planned to be done on the Causeway -- 6 more dry ecopassages and 2 more large aquatic culverts are proposed if the LPCIP can raise the funds.



This is what I was hoping to hear and would make me more comfortable with the project - I just hope that the funding can be raised to accommodate additional phases.
 
Canvasback.ca

I will definately bow to my teacher and scientific mentor as an expert. Definately no personal insults thrown your way. You were included in the who's that taught Me to be a sceptic.

Maybe...bad science is not totally accurate but you must admit incomplete science.

eg....How can claims that mediation projects are being successful (like the frog fence) without even knowing the population of any index species involved.

Maybe projects that seem on the surface to be good...are actually bad.

I just object to the dam the torpedo's costs for the initial project as was presented. Then the claims that public money would not be used....then to find out no public money includes $60000 from Norfolk just to get the project started.

I think that I might just start a "Fix the lakes on Erie Boulivard" movement since the County claims to have no money to fix it for the 25 yrs I have been on the Point.
 
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