OH I feel so violated by you looking at my reels, why should I put on 300 yrds on each reel when at most I only use 50 yrds. as long as I have checked my reels for length to the counter I think I am ok. way she fn goes.
Dipsy diving depth highly inaccurate?
- Thread starter sterlingz
- Start date
OH I feel so violated by you looking at my reels, why should I put on 300 yrds on each reel when at most I only use 50 yrds. as long as I have checked my reels for length to the counter I think I am ok. way she fn goes.
Fish Farmer
Well-Known Member
If you want to be exact, mark off 150' on your sidewalk, let your line out to that spot, mark your line with a marker.
Mind you, your neighbors are going to call someone to put you away.
Just saying
Done it myself
get some weird looks
Mind you, your neighbors are going to call someone to put you away.
Just saying
Done it myself
get some weird looks
sterlingz
Well-Known Member
Just keep in mind that the depth on the graph will be wrong, and you need to account for blowback, which is a huge variable. And this is for the beginners, not necessarily you.
I will re-post this report from April 2012 written by a long time member and charter guy. It explains the geometry involved in the depth and distance out of a dipsy in terms only an Einstein could understand....great job though @Hoover !
simply use trigonometry
you have 2 sides of the triangle, the depth and the amount of line out by the chart, you can assume its a right angle triangle due to apex being at the tip of the rod. The 90 being where the diver meets the vertical being the depth. Now you have the offset of this triangle at an angle to your boat, you can break this up into 3 dimensional space and use vector math to solve that. I will go through an example with you and give you some quick multipliers to solve.
you can use Sine Law or Pythagorean Theorem to solve that
eg:
Diver is out 150' the chart says it is 45' down, how far is the diver away from my boat
Break the space up into X (direction from stern) Y (direction away from port or starboard) and Z (depth / vertical)
Solve the triangle that is made up of Z and is a partially between X and Y
Use Pythagorean Theorem to solve for this
Line Out^2 = Depth^2 + XY^2 rearrange and solve for XY
XY = 143
So now you know its away from the boat 143' however you do not know in what proportions to the back or the side.
At different speeds the angle of the plane that the line the depth and the xy falls on could be between 30 and 45 degrees
If the angle is 45 degrees you can use sin45 x 143
sin45 is 1/(2^(1/2)) or 1 over root 2 aka 0.707
Thus the diver would be 100' out to the side and 100' out to the back.
Suppose you were trolling slower and the angle was 30 degrees, now you would use sin30 which is 1/2 aka 0.5
you can solve for the distance away 143/2 = 71.5 to the side and then use Pythagorean theorem to solve the distance back or use Cos30 which is root 3 over 2 aka 0.866. So 0.866 * 143 = 124
Summary
Diver 150' out 45' down is between 70 and 100 ' to the side of your boat depending on your speed. My data shows the 30 deg (70' out) is relative to low 2 MPH and the 45 deg (100' out) is relative to around 3 MPH.
Hope thats clear as mud!
F7Firecat
Well-Known Member
I agree 100 feet out gives around 60 feet in depth on a big dipsey
Crestliner16
Well-Known Member
The trigonometry still won’t give the right answer if you’re relying on an unreliable line counter for your “hypotenuse” or if your dive chart doesn’t match your line diameter and trolling speed. Even when you’re reading the right chart and you’ve measured/marked the line precisely, the line isn’t going to be straight between the rod tip and dipsy, so the rest of the calcs won’t be quite right.
As for the original post, not sure it’s fair to say the dipsy running depth is ‘inaccurate’ – it will consistently dive to whatever depth physics permits. The manufacturer would have to cram a lot of charts in the package to cover every possible combination of line diameter, dipsy setting, trolling speed, current, rod angle, lure choice…. And at the end of all that, the angler would still need to verify the counter # vs actual length for their particular reel and line.
It's not limited to dipsys, though. Flatlining crankbaits or running leadcore will have the same sorts of variables (“X” ft. per colour isn’t written in stone), and even downriggers will be affected by boat speed, ball shape & weight, current, cable diam, etc.
note to self: bring a calculator next time out!
As for the original post, not sure it’s fair to say the dipsy running depth is ‘inaccurate’ – it will consistently dive to whatever depth physics permits. The manufacturer would have to cram a lot of charts in the package to cover every possible combination of line diameter, dipsy setting, trolling speed, current, rod angle, lure choice…. And at the end of all that, the angler would still need to verify the counter # vs actual length for their particular reel and line.
It's not limited to dipsys, though. Flatlining crankbaits or running leadcore will have the same sorts of variables (“X” ft. per colour isn’t written in stone), and even downriggers will be affected by boat speed, ball shape & weight, current, cable diam, etc.
note to self: bring a calculator next time out!
Use the precision trolling app. It gives the amount of line to let out for different line types - which aren't on the packaging. Also gives amount of line for hundreds of different lures if flat lining.
www.precisiontrollingdata.com
Precision Trolling Data | Fishing lure and trolling gear depth data and apps available for iOS and Android devices
Precision Trolling Data, LLC is an independent company that documents the diving depth of popular fishing lures such as crankbaits and also common trolling hardware such as diving planers and also…
www.precisiontrollingdata.com
sterlingz
Well-Known Member
The trigonometry answer above is definitely incorrect for the reason you stated, but also because the observable line angle from the boat is also incorrect. The line bows like crazy which gives the impression of steeper angles from the boat. Like 20 degree off or maybe even more.
To do the real math you need to also consider:
- Line/dipsy/tackle weight
- Line/dipsy/tackle buoyancy
- Surface area of the line
- Probably other things I'm not considering.
It was intended as a joke....sorry to confuse people. The point of this being that, as you suggest, there are way too many variables to accurately predict what depth a dipsy will run at. The charts and calculations are just a guide and the fisherman needs to apply some effort to get them to where the fish are with some repeatability.
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anonymoose
Well-Known Member
Here's the real issue at hand: What if the Fishhawk used to verify depth affects the dive of the lure or dipsy??
You could be off by several inches!!
That fish isn't going to swim the inches needed to close this massive gap. I suggest everyone get good at swimming with a long ruler to verify dive depths on each day on the water.
You could be off by several inches!!
That fish isn't going to swim the inches needed to close this massive gap. I suggest everyone get good at swimming with a long ruler to verify dive depths on each day on the water.
Fish Farmer
Well-Known Member
On average an inside turn dipsy will produce a fish when it crashes to the bottom then you straighten out the dipsy rises and bang fish on, where or what depth the fish hit, who knows.
I don't know but it seems turns produce fish.
Was out the other day buddy and myself we used the same size Walker Deeper Diver at #3 setting 150 back in 50 FOW running worm harness he was hitting bottom and I wasn't, figure that out
I don't know but it seems turns produce fish.
Was out the other day buddy and myself we used the same size Walker Deeper Diver at #3 setting 150 back in 50 FOW running worm harness he was hitting bottom and I wasn't, figure that out
sterlingz
Well-Known Member
I bet it does! Did you know that precision trolling uses an actual guy in a scuba suit to check lure depth?
Speaking of the fishhawk, I'm peeved that it only gives data every 5ft. That's a big gap.
U-290
Well-Known Member
I agree, a properly spooled okuma reel with line counter will be out by 20%. I have check all of mine and that seems to be consistent. Therefore I add 20% to whatever depth I need based on the 107 mm chart.
More importantly, fish always look up! So I always set above them, I stagger my 6 dipsey's on settings of 1,2,3 to different lengths,3 on each side, see what's hitting, then adjust!
More importantly, fish always look up! So I always set above them, I stagger my 6 dipsey's on settings of 1,2,3 to different lengths,3 on each side, see what's hitting, then adjust!
I spool mine on a spooling machine and if done properly they're consistently within 2%. Once they are close to full, you cross check the reel line counter to the actual foot counter on the spooler and keep filling until they're bang on. If you lose a bit of line they are out but you can lose a lot braid before they're off by more than about 5%. Remember the line counters on the reels only count revolutions of the drum based on a theoretical filled drum diameter. If you get the fill exactly right, they'll be right on but too full or not full enough and they go out of whack pretty drastically.
All my reels (Okuma, Daiwa, & Shimanos) all appear to be almost over filled before they read properly but being as I'm a fuss fart, I want them all to read right and spend time to make them so. It just takes one variable out of things when running cranks, dipsies, jets or whatever.
Line counters on lead core are irrelevant other than to give you a bit of reputability since they go from full to nearly empty as the core is let out and are out by almost 200% once the spool nears empty.
Minnownite
Well-Known Member
So a bit of a different question from what's being asked. I'm taking two of my lead core setups with line counters. Changing them to dipsy set ups. The rapala fathoms. I don't like flat lining. Too many tangles.
So my question. It says on the reel
14lb -450 yards
20lb -340 yards.
I want to spool with braid. What size test and how much do I spool?
So my question. It says on the reel
14lb -450 yards
20lb -340 yards.
I want to spool with braid. What size test and how much do I spool?
I have an excel spreadsheet to figure these out and it is really quite close in most cases. I plugged in your reel data and came up with two scenarios, you can put 250 yds of 20# mono backing with 150 yds of 50# braid OR 150yds of 20# backing with 300yds of 50# braid, either should work well for the dipises. You can play around with numbers all you want this weekend, doesn't look too fishable anyway..
I can't attach the excel file to the forum so here is a link to a onedrive sharefile if you want to play around with it.
Reel Fill Calculator
rockin-steelhead
Well-Known Member
Good thing I don’t worry about that while using my knuckle busters on Lake O for salmon....lol
Foulhooker
Well-Known Member
Dipsys are a waste of time until the fish are below 30 feet in the column. ya they will catch fish but it's about 1 to 10 catch rate of lead core on boards when the fish are high I wouldnt bother with dipsys. Anyone who says lead sucks to reel in u obviously run cheap telephone poles
hvyhaul
Well-Known Member
@Foulhooker after seeing it first hand this year, I have to agree to a point.
I've had good success (limits) with my dispsys when the fish are shallow..... Cuz that was what I had.
However,
I've been out with @scoop! Who puts most of the fish in the box off his big boards.
I finally added a mast and boards last weekend to my boat, and the single trip out with them so far, the big boards out performed my tried and true dispsys by a long shot. ?
I've had good success (limits) with my dispsys when the fish are shallow..... Cuz that was what I had.
However,
I've been out with @scoop! Who puts most of the fish in the box off his big boards.
I finally added a mast and boards last weekend to my boat, and the single trip out with them so far, the big boards out performed my tried and true dispsys by a long shot. ?
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