Private Property Question

quinner01

Well-Known Member
#1
I have a question about private property, where can I look for an answer? I dont think the CO's would really have an idea, would it be the police then?

It stems from fishing the mouth of a creek, where I was in the water. I accessed the beach area publicly (dead end road and no one owned the strip of land leading to the beach, as well as getting landowner permission to get down to the beach area from the road) but then had to cross an area of the beach that was "private" (or so I am told by another land owner) to get to the mouth to fish. Is every inch of beach or sand on the shores of lake erie owned by someone, if its not a public beach? I can walk the edge of the water along the beach then? I couldnt do that this case, as there was ice, so I was walking on the ice. Maybe there is a high water line to walk, like the rivers have? just as long as you dont access the property by crossing over private property? Just curious really.

Thanks

 

quinner01

Well-Known Member
#2
I was also told by the one landowner that he knew people that owned a small section of beach off of a public beach in Port Stanley. They couldnt prevent people from walking through their beach area, but people werent allowed to set up camp there, so maybe this is true..

 

elevatorman

Well-Known Member
#2
Most lake front property owners on Erie own a certain amount from the road to the water (say 150'). So if there is 200' of land from the road to the water, you have 50' of public beach. At least that's how it is at the cottage. Problem being is you don't know how much they own.

Dan B.

www.Fish-A-Thon.com

 

fisherman

Well-Known Member
#2
:D25 ft/ from the high water mark on lake erie is crown owned land or native run if ur close to native land// its against the law to have a land owner come out and chastize you call the opp hell set them strait this is a law forgot the number in fed stats if the land owner and opp dont know oceans and fisheries can be involved in the dispute/nagivable water ways are not to be interfered with bin there done it[|)][|)]8[:I] creeks are a little different unless their nagivigatable or dug channels[:X]its against the law to harass a fishing person on these waterways can result in serious charges but cooler heads must preavail[:X]
 

quinner01

Well-Known Member
#2
Nope, none, only was fishing for maybe a half hour before the one land owner seen us, and that was the end. Guess he didnt like us standing in Lake Erie... We had a couple items on the beach (net, extra rod) but we were knee deep out in the lake.

 

keeper

Well-Known Member
#2
I believe that the original intent was a place for shipwrecked sailors to come ashore. Some landowners just BS people so they can keep the game area for themselves.

There are some exceptions for example Tiny Township up around Wasga Beach. Up there the cottagers own the beach front.

Rumour has it that a mile around Bait Island at Long Point is part of the deed.

Look at New Bruinswick where many of the best streams are owned privately.
 

quinner01

Well-Known Member
#2
Breakingclay, that was a great read. Thanks. I still think the rules are most likely different for lake erie though. Do landowners own every inch right up to the water of lake erie? Is there a high water line that can be walked? As the lake can be higher or lower by a couple feet any given year. Maybe there are so many feet from the start of the lake, onto the land, that can be walked (ie. the first 25 feet of land like stated above I believe).

Is there registry offices in each town that one can go and get a definite answer for a specific lot of land? Thanks for the replies.

 

JustForUs

Well-Known Member
#2
I would imagine if you really want to get into it then the best place would be the land registry office. Depending upon the township it normally is with in the court house. If you know the address then you can look up the survey and get the exact lot size etc.
 

fisherman

Well-Known Member
#2
[:eek:)]the office of oceans and fisheries will give you the info neededthey dont take kindly to offenders of the right to be on or near nagivable water ways m/c donald owner of turkey point was raked over the coals over right of ways by cottage owners to nagivate their channels out to the lake/ he threatened to lock em in the lady from oceans and fisheries told him legal action would persue him if he did / same for crown owned land on great lakes they are for the public any one who interferes with that should be reportedno one i re4peat no one can stop yopu from embarking on the high waters of any great lake shore line on the canadian side if they attempt it call 911 if the local opp wont take it ask for the mounties they will so take charge and will enforce it [^] bi there done it:D:D
 

fisherman

Well-Known Member
#2
[:I]also to add you have to be carefull on small rivers the land owner can own to middle of creeks and small rivers but again if its navigable you can float tube or canoe it with impunity they haqve to give you the right [:eek:)]its also in the fed ; regs its agaibnst the law to bother any fisherman or hunter the cops or mounties or mnr peeps are the only ones to enforce this or any fedral stats / its in the fed stats. bill numbers i orget so if you are harrased call 911 turn this into a legal sitituation[V]no smaller lakes and rivers and creeks might be non usable but the law can make the owner proove it so be nice ans stay safe be nice to the bitchers make em prove it in a nioce way [^]
 
#2
Try to find "high-water mark" in any Ontario or Canadian piece of legislation these days. You can find allusions to it in "shoreline" bits, but I haven't found anything that says "high-water"- if someone's done more research here than me, I'd love to hear it.
Coastal areas are hard to navigate as far as "property rights" go. Across the lake, Ohio is having this exact discussion, and is basically trying to establish something that seems a lot like a high-water mark, but it's still open for debate and interpretation. Stay in the water and very few defensible interpretations would put you in the wrong. In my opinion, lots of not awesome advice in this thread.
 

SRT8

Well-Known Member
#2
There's a lot of way better fishing in the area Quinner it is nice to have options but this spot isn't worth the headache, I don't think so anyways


I would like to thank Denali custom rods and The Rod Glove for their support
 
#2
That's good to know. The stakes in the lake that specify "private property" seem to be going out into the lake more and more every year. next time I'm going to tell the guy to go to hell.
 

Stick

Well-Known Member
#2
Bass Assassin....If you are talking about the stakes around Millionaires you will lose. They will move you and charge you with trespassing and win. We used to, as young stupid teenagers will do, decoy the caretaker with one boat to be chased and another to fish after they left. Could have cost us big time. A few have challenged them in court and all have lost.

To all. I look at the private property question this way. If someone asks you to leave you should have asked permission in the first place. And it is up to you to prove they don't own the area you are tresspassing in. Chances are pretty good that you are in their back yard, and as a home owner, no one I don't want is going to hang around in my backyard. You can be charged very easily if you refuse to leave. Check out the Tresspass to Property Act in Ontario.

I've been lucky from the start of my fishing career. My father worked for the tobacco board and knew every farmer in the area. I've been able to fish so many inaccessable areas because he or I've talked to the land owner first. Many of those people just want their privacy like everyone else. Many of those landowners I now consider as friends and most allow me to drive right on in, sometimes right to my favourite runs and park because they know I will watch out for their properties as if it were my own. I even enjoy the odd ride throughout their property if the landowner comes along and just wants to see a few fish caught. Right now and until after opener this property I'm thinking of will be a very busy place. So if you happen to be there and see me in the farmers truck smoking one of his cigars you will know the exact property I'm talking about.

I used to believe it was better to ask forgiveness than permission but when it comes to getting access to beautiful flowing water, I've learned that the opposite makes for a much more enjoyable day......And no one is blasting shotgun pellets over my head anymore.....True story!

Stick


"Rivers are living things, sometimes swollen and discoloured, other times thin and anaemic. Spend enough time around a particular river, you learn to read its moods, like a spouse reads a partner."

Gord Ellis ONTARIO OUT OF DOORS
 

quinner01

Well-Known Member
#2
You tell em bass assassin. More people should, we as anglers always get **** on when it comes to fishing and private property..land owners who think they own everything.



 

SRT8

Well-Known Member
#2
if your talking about the stakes by the millionaires and turkey point marsh they have rights that are very old and allow us to fish there out of hunting season so I wouldn't be to rude (don't get me wrong I don't like it either but it's partly responsible for the great fishing in the bay)we as anglers need to KNOW the rules and not go around cursing at landowners be polite and get the police or fisheries and oceans involved if they are unruley or violent it sometimes sucks to be the better person and walk away but the public unfortunately paints all anglers/hunters with the same brush. we do have the right to fish without being harrased but we also need to follow the rules and show some respect to land owners weather they deserve it or not. Not disagreeing with you this is just my 2 cents on the the access issue


I would like to thank Denali custom rods and The Rod Glove for their support
 

SRT8

Well-Known Member
#2
LOL must of posted at the same time Stick


I would like to thank Denali custom rods and The Rod Glove for their support
 

Stick

Well-Known Member
#2
Looks like it Shawn. 8D


Stick


"Rivers are living things, sometimes swollen and discoloured, other times thin and anaemic. Spend enough time around a particular river, you learn to read its moods, like a spouse reads a partner."

Gord Ellis ONTARIO OUT OF DOORS
 
#2
quote:
Originally posted by Stick

To all. I look at the private property question this way. If someone asks you to leave you should have asked permission in the first place. And it is up to you to prove they don't own the area you are tresspassing in. Chances are pretty good that you are in their back yard, and as a home owner, no one I don't want is going to hang around in my backyard. You can be charged very easily if you refuse to leave. Check out the Tresspass to Property Act in Ontario.



I disagree with this. I feel like the best opportunities that we have to maintain our common resource rights are to use them. You are right that the LPC successfully argued to have their rights extended into what might be understood as a common resource area, but this area is understood by most Ontarians as a common resource area and I expect that they expect challenges from time to time because of this. The company's rights are likely maintained through the "beds of navigable waters act".
Similarly, creeks are maintained as common pool resources via the "beds on navigable waters act", so all of the creeks and their beds are navigable" (unless otherwise identified by the crown as was done with the LPCompany). You don't need permission to access those creeks, provided you can get from right-of-way to creek without trespassing, and most creeks cross a road somewhere!
The idea of the TPA is an interesting one. From the text, if you are entering a natural area (where trees are at least 2m), you aren't trespassing until you are notified of the owner's intent: so here, there may be opportunities to access a watercourse without "trespassing".
I personally encourage those who stand their ground in these identifiably public areas (like creeks), but recognize that the surrounding legislation is difficult to understand; however, the best way to maintain those rights is to use them- it's also probably the best way to maintain the resource (fish).
 

quinner01

Well-Known Member
#2
In the situation I posted this about, I was on the bottom of the lake erie cliff or coast line, you cant even see the houses 30 feet above you, if there are even any there... just walking the shore on ice/beach. I did ask for permission to access the beach by one owner who actually said he wished more people would ask to come and enjoy this beautiful area. I guess I assumed he owned the entire stretch and never thought Id be hearing from another landowner a couple hundred yards down. Again, its not like I was in viewing distance or anyone could even see me, I was 30 feet below any houses, due to the high embankment on lake eries shores. I highly doubt this guy owned right up to the waters edge, but maybe he does. Its not somewhere I'd go regularily, so its not a big issue with me, I was just curious to ask. I will look into it eventually.

 

Stick

Well-Known Member
#2
A copy and paste from the following link,

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/stat/rso-1990-c-t21/latest/rso-1990-c-t21.html

Trespass an offence

2. (1) Every person who is not acting under a right or authority conferred by law and who,

(a) without the express permission of the occupier, the proof of which rests on the defendant,

(i) enters on premises when entry is prohibited under this Act, or

(ii) engages in an activity on premises when the activity is prohibited under this Act; or

(b) does not leave the premises immediately after he or she is directed to do so by the occupier of the premises or a person authorized by the occupier,

is guilty of an offence and on conviction is liable to a fine of not more than $2,000. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 2 (1).

And

Prohibition of entry

3. (1) Entry on premises may be prohibited by notice to that effect and entry is prohibited without any notice on premises,

(a) that is a garden, field or other land that is under cultivation, including a lawn, orchard, vineyard and premises on which trees have been planted and have not attained an average height of more than two metres and woodlots on land used primarily for agricultural purposes; or

(b) that is enclosed in a manner that indicates the occupier’s intention to keep persons off the premises or to keep animals on the premises. R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 3 (1).



Stick


"Rivers are living things, sometimes swollen and discoloured, other times thin and anaemic. Spend enough time around a particular river, you learn to read its moods, like a spouse reads a partner."

Gord Ellis ONTARIO OUT OF DOORS
 
#2
The question here is are you "on premises" if not then this act does not apply. It appears in the vast vast majotrity (exceptions like millionaires, power facitlities and logging operartions are very few) you are not. I too am a firm believer in making sure we can use areas we are entitled to use and not have others impede upon this as they have the impression only they should be able to access said areas.

Scott
 

ch312

Well-Known Member
#2
quote:
Originally posted by quinner01

You tell em bass assassin. More people should, we as anglers always get **** on when it comes to fishing and private property..land owners who think they own everything.



your last sentence there doesnt make sense to me. you're complaining about landowners who think they own everything, yet you don't even know owns the land in question.

we as anglers and hunters always get **** on because of people ASSuming they can fish or hunt wherever they please without finding out who owns the land first. its those people that make landowners look at the rest of us and automatically think trespasser, poacher, etc. anglers and hunters are the ones who are obligated to find out who owns what BEFORE you head out fishing or hunting...
 

Jay

Well-Known Member
#2
Guys, this is a touchy subject.

I can't comment much on the Nav Water issues being discussed in LP Bay. However, when it comes to beach front or stream bank access I have some thoughts.

When it comes to fishing/hunting we are privileged to live where we do. However, access issues can hinder some of our enjoyment of our outdoor passions. Anglers and Hunters need to be part OUTDOOR ENTHUSIAST and part AMBASSADOR. Always be sure to be representing your sport the best way you can. Every encounter with others while in the field can leave a lasting impression.

If you are not sure of the local property rights find out before venturing out. What I like to do is consult with a good map first. I used to consult topographic maps. Now I use Google Earth/Map. Print off maps of the area you are interested in and note road names, stream names, etc.

I would then go to the local township office to determine who owned the property. You don't need to know names of the land owners. Just look at the property boundaries near the point you want to access. Between your map and the township into you should be able to quickly determine who owns the parcel you are interested in.

Then it is door knocking. Don't go to the door with your rod or gun in hand. Visit the landowner and plan for a casual meeting. Tell them your name, where you live, etc. You can even provide them a piece of paper with this info.

Remember, you are an AMBASSADOR. Keep a smile on your face. Ask questions and answer questions. You may be surprised how positive this can be. We are at a time when more and more signs are POSTED and we need to maintain access opportunities.

Sure...we can negotiate with landowners about WHO owns WHAT. However, a little positive conversation goes a long way. Trust me. I have learned this through work and play. I meet landowners all the time and have had a variety of 'meetings' or 'discussions' over the years.

Don't be afraid to visit the local township office and look at the mapping of the area.

My 0.02 cents, for what its worth.

Name: Jason Barnucz (Delhi, Ontario)
Thanks to my sponsors Bass Magnet Lures, Koppers Live Target Lures, Fishing World (Hamilton)
2007, 2011 Team Ontario, Ontario BASS Federation Nation
 

Stick

Well-Known Member
#2
quote:
Originally posted by breakingclay

The question here is are you "on premises" if not then this act does not apply. It appears in the vast vast majotrity (exceptions like millionaires, power facitlities and logging operartions are very few) you are not. I too am a firm believer in making sure we can use areas we are entitled to use and not have others impede upon this as they have the impression only they should be able to access said areas.

Scott




Definitions

1. (1) In this Act,

“occupier” includes,

(a) a person who is in physical possession of premises, or

(b) a person who has responsibility for and control over the condition of premises or the activities there carried on, or control over persons allowed to enter the premises,

even if there is more than one occupier of the same premises; (“occupant”)

“premises” means lands and structures, or either of them, and includes,

(a) water,

(b) ships and vessels,

(c) trailers and portable structures designed or used for residence, business or shelter,

(d) trains, railway cars, vehicles and aircraft, except while in operation. (“lieux”) R.S.O. 1990, c. T.21, s. 1 (1).

You are on premises as soon as you enter someones property.

When I took the Fish and Wildlife Guardian Program course with the MNR our instructor was very precise and informative as to what constituted trespassing. If you are on someones land without their permission you are trespassing, except when you are going to their door. There is a provission for that in the act.

Even floating or walking in the water down a navigable water way you could be tresspassing. If the original deed granted "Millers Rights" giving the occupier the creek bottom and you walk, anchor, tie off to a tree or even portage over a log jam that is coming from their property you can be charged with trespassing.

Stick


"Rivers are living things, sometimes swollen and discoloured, other times thin and anaemic. Spend enough time around a particular river, you learn to read its moods, like a spouse reads a partner."

Gord Ellis ONTARIO OUT OF DOORS
 
#2
Stick I am not trying to negate what you are quoting. I too agree with finding out first, then potentially exercising these rights. Your last quote does bring up an interesting point though, what if that log jam is blocking a navigable waterway is that in itself not contraveining some act some where:)

Scott
 
#2
PART IIOBSTACLES AND OBSTRUCTIONSInterpretation
Definition of “owner”


14. (1) In this Part, “owner” means the registered or other owner at the time any wreck, obstruction or obstacle referred to in this Part was occasioned, and includes a subsequent purchaser.
Interpretation

(2) A reference to a “thing” in sections 15 to 18 and 20, with respect to a thing that is or is likely to become an obstruction or obstacle to navigation, does not include a reference to a thing of natural origin unless the obstruction or obstacle, or likely obstruction or obstacle, is caused by a person.

R.S., 1985, c. N-22, s. 14; 2009, c. 2, s. 330.

So it looks like if it fell on it's own the owner is OK, unless he dug a hole near the base of the tree which subsequently caused it to fall and block the navigable waterway:)

Scott
 

big guy

Well-Known Member
#2
Good topic, but full of uncertainties, still, to this day.
On the Nine Mile River, at Port Albert(Lake Huron), there is a landowner that wants everyone to stay away from the river running through his property. He has even strung a "heavy" steel cable above the river, with a no trespassing sign hung directly above the river. I/we have never recognized this sign as a legitimate or legal deterant from walking "in" the river along the edges. This river is a navigable waterway. As kids, we would canoe down from a couple of bridges upstream during the late spring runoff. There, by definition, it's navigable, thus crown land. Federal legislation covers ALL of Canada, from coast to coast. That includes the shores of all the great lakes. Still, nobody likes confrontation, but don't be bullied either.
 
#2
Sticke see your first post where you outline some of the conditions for "prohibition of entry"... list them all next time, and look at what is purposely missing and how it can be reconciled, then look at my post that addresses the TPA.
 

quinner01

Well-Known Member
#2
quote:
Originally posted by ch312

quote:
Originally posted by quinner01

You tell em bass assassin. More people should, we as anglers always get **** on when it comes to fishing and private property..land owners who think they own everything.



your last sentence there doesnt make sense to me. you're complaining about landowners who think they own everything, yet you don't even know owns the land in question.

we as anglers and hunters always get **** on because of people ASSuming they can fish or hunt wherever they please without finding out who owns the land first. its those people that make landowners look at the rest of us and automatically think trespasser, poacher, etc. anglers and hunters are the ones who are obligated to find out who owns what BEFORE you head out fishing or hunting...






You missed the part where I said I asked for permission and it was granted. The owner said he actually wished more people would use his property. I generally always ask if I know 100% the property is infact private. But dont come out and say its always the fishermans fault, a lot of the time owners do get carried away with what they own.

If people didnt litter and disrespect peoples property, I'm sure there wouldnt be much of an issue here... All too often I find myself picking up after others, while fishing on someone elses property.

 
#2
This is never more apparent while turkey hunting on property that I have paid taxes on and you have a decoy that is visible from the road just watch how many cars and trucks slow down had one guy get out with his gun, even though resources are there it is not an automatic right to shoot the world. Be considerate with land owners.
 
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